Green vs UKIP – let battle commence!

I’ve been having a lively exchange of views with UKIP on the letters page of the Bristol Post. I will update this as the conversation progresses. (My letters are included unedited from how sent, UKIP’s – for the obvious reason that I don’t do PR for xenophobes – I have just provided a link to.)

GREEN LETTER

 Every five years we are asked to vote for regional representatives (MEPs) in the European Parliament, a body that most people feel is remote, self-serving and snatches our nation’s sovereignty.

So, in the spirit of Monty Python’s Life Of Brian, the question needs to be asked – ‘what has EU membership ever done for us?’ Well, if you discount peace between member states for the last fifty years, then there’s legislation that protects our environment; landfill, wildlife, habitats, water-quality, air quality, reduction of climate change gases  etc; and there’s workers’ rights – ensuring paid holidays, Health & Safety protection at work, equal treatment for part-time workers & women, and protection when businesses are sold.

But it isn’t just the usual lefty crowd who appreciate the EU. Even in a recent CBI (Confederation of British Industry) survey, 8 out of 10 firms believe we have a better future within Europe than out of it.*

Admittedly, not everything about the EU is perfect – bureaucracy, inefficiency and accountability being major problems; but as we go into the campaign for the European elections next May, let’s think about whether or not we are glossing over the major achievements of the last 40 years of the EU just because a minority of us simply don’t like Europe.

Rob Telford
Green councillor for Ashley ward

* Source: http://www.cbi.org.uk/media-centre/press-releases/2013/09/8-out-of-10-firms-say-uk-must-stay-in-eu-cbi-yougov-survey/

UKIP RESPONSE 1: http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/free-run-country/story-19919744-detail/story.html


GREEN RESPONSE 1
It was wonderful to read Bob Danaher, UKIP’s Secretary for Bath & North East Somerset, respond to my previous letter about the EU, although I’m not sure why their Bristol secretary couldn’t reply? Perhaps there isn’t one after their terrible routing in the local elections in May.

Anyway, a simple question: are UKIP against redistributing EU funds to rural areas?

I only ask because the current EU agriculture spend in the UK is around £3.3bn and I think farmers in the South West would like to know where UKIP stand on their livelihoods being taken away so brusquely.

The Greens’ position on Europe is “three yeses”. Yes to an in-out EU referendum (people who are aged 55 or under should finally be given a say in the UK’s membership), yes to staying in Europe (the EU has fostered peace and understanding between nations) and yes to further reform (there is a huge democratic deficit that needs closing if UK citizens are to embrace European status fully).

The Greens stand a great chance of getting our first MEP in the South West (Molly Scott Cato), with the national picture showing the likelihood that we will increase our MEPs from 2 to 6.

Rob Telford
Green councillor for Ashley ward

UKIP RESPONSE 2: http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Greens-jealous-UKIP-s-political-status/story-20044765-detail/story.html

 

GREEN RESPONSE 2

In reply to Christine Wyndham-Thomas of UKIP, it is more a case of envy than jealousy (“Are Greens jealous of UKIP’s political status?”, 7 November).

We’re envious of the extraordinarily unrepresentative levels of broadcast media coverage UKIP receives for a party that has no MPs in the UK Parliament. Nigel Farage has had more appearances on the BBC’s flagship political programme Question Time than any other politician since 2009: 14 at the time of writing.

In the 2013 Bristol elections, UKIP got 4.16% of the vote compared to the Green Party’s 13.76%. The Greens doubled our number of councillors to 4, and UKIP still have none. The Greens work productively with other parties and with our city’s Mayor.

On the national level, UKIP still have no MPs, and the Greens have one. Caroline Lucas is one of the most efficient, hard-working and respected MPs.

On the European level, the 2 Green MEPs punch way above their weight. Jean Lambert, Green MEP for London, has put forward 87 proposals in the European Parliament. Nigel Farage has put forward 2. Mr Farage has only attended 46% of votes in the European Parliament, Keith Taylor, Green MEP for the South East has attended 95%.

I welcome any further comments from Ms Wyndham-Thomas.

Rob Telford

Green councillor for Ashley ward

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11 thoughts on “Green vs UKIP – let battle commence!”

  1. In reply to Rob Telford’s “Green Response 2”

    Belated, I’m sorry, but have only just come across your comment – and that was by sheer accident!

    There was a time when UKIP didn’t get any media coverage, but they have fought hard to get the media coverage they now deserve.

    With no disrespect meant to the Green Party, you really don’t have a problem with working with the other parties, or with The Mayor, because you are all pro-EU. You all sing to the same tune, even though the words may sound different!

    UKIP is purely for people living in Britain. They will always put Britain first. UKIP is not against Europe, but against the EU – which has nothing to do with trade, but is a political union. How can any sane person really want that? Common sense says we can govern ourselves and we do not need to be in a political union in order to trade.

    If you really believe that Britain cannot govern itself and need to be controlled by Brussels, perhaps you should leave politics well alone and leave it to leaders. Britain lacks a true leader. Cameron, Milliband, Clegg are followers (they follow orders from a dictator); they are not leaders. None of them have any back bone to be leaders.

    UKIP is not against ‘controlled’ immigration. It is definitely against open-door immigration. It is not against giving aid overseas where necessary, but believe that charity begins at home. UKIP will ALWAYS put Britain FIRST.

    In the 2013 Bristol Elections, the Greens did a lot better than UKIP but given the ‘circumstances’ back then, UKIP did very well indeed; better than expected given that we had only professionally set up UKIP Bristol a month previously with only six candidates. Even we couldn’t expect miracles at that time!

    Rather than talk about how many MPs or MEPs you have and stressing how hard they work, perhaps you would like to tell us exactly what they have achieved. What has benefited Britain that wouldn’t have benefited Britain had it not been for them.

    Without UKIP, no one today would know the real truth about the European Union (political union) leading to a Federal State! Instead, they would be believing the lies told them by Cameron, Milliband and Clegg – who couldn’t give a toss about Britain, but are only in politics for themselves.

    You may criticise the fact that Nigel Farage and his deputy leader, Paul Nutall only attended 46% of the votes in the European Parliament, but the reason for that is the complexity of the voting system. Read about it on Wikipedia.

    Finally, you mention that Jean Lambert had put forward 87 proposals in the European Parliament. How many of those proposals were accepted? Of those that were not accepted, why not?

    Regards
    Christine Wyndham-Thomas
    United Kingdom Independence Party
    Bristol Branch

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  2. There is one other matter I’d like to put straight right now. UKIP is not xenophobic. Being concerned about open-door immigration is NOT xenophobia. We have NEVER been racist.

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  3. Hi Christine

    Apologies, I don’t check my blog comments and only just saw this.

    >>> “With no disrespect meant to the Green Party, you really don’t have a problem with working with the other parties, or with The Mayor, because you are all pro-EU. You all sing to the same tune, even though the words may sound different!”

    <<>> “UKIP is purely for people living in Britain.”

    <<>> “How can any sane person really want that?”

    <<>> “Common sense says we can govern ourselves and we do not need to be in a political union in order to trade.”

    <<>> “Britain lacks a true leader.”

    <<>> “UKIP will ALWAYS put Britain FIRST.”

    <<>> “Rather than talk about how many MPs or MEPs you have and stressing how hard they work, perhaps you would like to tell us exactly what they have achieved. What has benefited Britain that wouldn’t have benefited Britain had it not been for them.”

    <<>> “You may criticise the fact that Nigel Farage and his deputy leader, Paul Nutall only attended 46% of the votes in the European Parliament, but the reason for that is the complexity of the voting system.”

    <<>> “Finally, you mention that Jean Lambert had put forward 87 proposals in the European Parliament. How many of those proposals were accepted? Of those that were not accepted, why not?”

    <<>> “UKIP is not xenophobic. Being concerned about open-door immigration is NOT xenophobia. We have NEVER been racist.”

    <<< Hahaha!

    I deleted your third comment because, quite hilariously, it was referring to an item of spam! But way to go in responding to it…!

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  4. (1) “With no disrespect meant to the Green Party, you really don’t have a problem with working with the other parties, or with The Mayor, because you are all pro-EU. You all sing to the same tune, even though the words may sound different!”

    (1a) That hasn’t really got anything to do with it. They are different levels of governance. And we clearly don’t agree with all parties and the Mayor on every issue. We work with the Mayor because he has most if not all of the power now, so if we want to see things improve, we have to do that.

    Yes, it’s understandable you have to work with The Mayor but The Mayor, The Green Party, Labour, Conservatives and LibDems are all pro-EU. In the same way that The Mayor holds power in Bristol, the EU holds power over its member states. You have to work within rules and regulations, whether you agree with them or not. You are in the same boat in that respect. You all believe that the EU can be transformed. Admittedly, you have different ideas what those reforms should be but, nonetheless, you all agree in principle. Co-operation between you isn’t too difficult, even though it may be frustrating at times.

    UKIP is the only party that wants to leave the EU whilst still remaining friends and trading with them. Nigel Farage likened it to an amicable divorce. Out of the EU and into the world, embracing the Commonwealth instead, which includes countries such as Africa, Asia, the Americas, Europe and the Pacific. We are all in favour of trading with Europe, but not being controlled by them. The prime minister has been reduced to the status of a glorified manager, because he is not in control of Britain.

    If we were not a member of the EU, the majority of the money we send them would be ours and we wouldn’t be in the situation we are in now. We have old people’s homes closing down; care homes closing down; families that can’t afford to buy food; bedroom taxes, where one or two have already committed suicide because of it, and a lack of jobs – which, again, a 20-yr-old committed suicide, after applying for 40 jobs to no avail. Just because they were British people, don’t you think they deserve compassion too! Yet plenty of money can be found to give to overseas charities.

    The one time Britain needed help with the flooding of the Somerset Levels, the EU told Cameron “No, it wasn’t severe enough.” Tell that to the people living on the Somerset Levels. It beggars belief that anyone can support the EU under such circumstances. They are not going to change. In fact, it is going to get a lot worse.

    Cameron believes that through negotiations he’d be able to repatriate some of the powers that the previous governments gave away. Nigel Farage has said there is no way Cameron can do that from within the EU. Barrusso and Angela Merkel have both told Cameron that he cannot repatriate powers, because that’s not how the EU works. Yet he still tries to convince people that he can. Sooner or later you are going to find out that the EU cannot be transformed and that nothing that’s worthwhile is going to change.

    (2) “UKIP is purely for people living in Britain.”

    (2a) That’s why your party is deplorable. Compassion is imperative when you live in one of the top 10 most developed countries, particularly when it comes to fleeing war, persecution and poverty – sometimes caused as a result of the UK’s actions – both recently and historically.

    I fail to understand how you can find what I say ‘deplorable’. I haven’t said the British people. I haven’t said only the people that are here now. I haven’t said any of that and yet you come up with your own idea of what I meant, without asking me to explain that statement further. Have you thought about what you would do when people who are really in need of our help can no longer come here to live because, through our open-door policy, we no longer have any room? Have you really thought, for a party that’s concerned about the natural environment, of the number of houses that are now being built on greenbelt, which means more destruction of the countryside? Soon, areas of natural outstanding beauty will become a thing of the past! They’re not even quality housing. Most have only a 10-yr guarantee.

    Compassion means caring for those who are less fortunate, regardless of race, colour or creed, but it shouldn’t mean that we become ‘wanting’ ourselves, or Britain becomes ruined as a result. Putting it into more down-to-earth terms, may be people on a £135,000+ salary each month could show more compassion for those on the minimum wage, which has now, incidentally, for most employers, become the maximum wage. Of course, if they did that, they would become wanting themselves and that would definitely not be good, now would it! Compassion works both ways!

    (3) “How can any sane person really want that?”

    (3a) You have insinuated that I am insane. This is hardly the way to develop a good dialogue with someone who has a different view to you, is it?

    I didn’t mean to insinuate you were insane; it was something that didn’t make sense to me and that’s how I saw it. Since we’re having a debate, you should have explained why you believe it’s important to be in a political union; by doing so, you might have mellowed my own perceptions. I just find it hard to believe that it’s better to hand over the running of a country to a foreign power, rather than run it yourself. That’s what’s happened to Britain and it doesn’t make sense to me!

    (4) “Common sense says we can govern ourselves and we do not need to be in a political union in order to trade.”

    (4a) I agree. Well, I don’t agree that “common sense” should be used as an argument for anything, but I agree that we can govern ourselves. I don’t agree that being united with other people in other countries is not a good thing for fostering peace – now and in the future.

    Agreed.

    (5a) Two words: Caroline Lucas.

    Nigel Farage

    (6) UKIP will ALWAYS put Britain FIRST.”

    (6a) Why?

    In order to be able to help others, you have to be in a strong position yourself. Britain is one of the top ten at the moment, but won’t be for long if we carry on the way we’re going. When our services become second best, rather than best; when there’s no quality in what we build and when we waste money, whilst closing down places that really matter – those are the signs that we are on a spiral downwards. It isn’t selfish to think of your own country at a time when one needs to, like now.

    We send too much money to the EU; millions for charities we know nothing about; millions for just being a member of the EU and there are so many other costs involved. Time to get out. We could use that money to improve Britain and the lives of the people here and still have enough left over to donate to charities of our choosing and help with overseas aid. The best way we can help people who are really in need is to help them develop their own countries. Train and educate them. Bring back control of our borders, so that Britain does not become too overcrowded, and that would then leave plenty of room for emergencies should we have to take people in from another country due to them fleeing wars or from persecution etc.

    I believe that Nigel Farage has the right way of protesting and that is to stand up in the European Parliament and speak out. I think UKIP are the only ones to do that. Here is a link of him doing just that – but I suppose you will delete it too because it shows exactly how Farage cares about the whole of Europe. It takes bravery to do that and has earned him great respect, even from Barrusso. http://iainmckie.co.uk/uk-parliament-comes-effective-end-november-2014-new-eu-rules/

    (7) “Rather than talk about how many MPs or MEPs you have and stressing how hard they work, perhaps you would like to tell us exactly what they have achieved. What has benefited Britain that wouldn’t have benefited Britain had it not been for them.”

    (7a) Two sites: http://www.jeanlambertmep.org.uk/jeans-issues/ and http://www.keithtaylormep.org.uk/publications/

    All of this work benefits Britain, as it represents an alternative to the neoliberal orthodoxy that the largest parties/party groups live by.

    Fair enough.

    (8) “You may criticise the fact that Nigel Farage and his deputy leader, Paul Nutall only attended 46% of the votes in the European Parliament, but the reason for that is the complexity of the voting system.”

    (8a) So what you are saying is they are too stupid to sit down and spend the time necessary to ensure they represent their constituents as well as they can? Not really good enough, is it?

    (9) “Finally, you mention that Jean Lambert had put forward 87 proposals in the European Parliament. How many of those proposals were accepted? Of those that were not accepted, why not?”

    (9a) Frankly, I have no idea – I was using it simply as a comparator of workrate to show how feckless your MEPs are. However, it’s likely that as the Greens are currently (until tomorrow!) in the fourth largest political grouping in the EP, they’re much more likely to receive support than anything Farage puts forward.

    By complexity, I didn’t mean as in ‘not understanding’ but as in ‘nothing will get passed’ due to its intricacies. That’s why of all the proposals voted against by Jean Lambert, none were passed. My understanding is that for a proposal to pass, it has to receive a 65% of the vote from the member states. That’s why UKIP doesn’t waste their time. If their vote counted and mattered then it would be very different indeed.

    (10) “UKIP is not xenophobic. Being concerned about open-door immigration is NOT xenophobia. We have NEVER been racist.”

    (10a) Hahaha!

    When the EU came into being, it wasn’t long after WW2, although, of course, its plans had been discussed years previously. It was a time of uncertainty and no country wanted to actually go to war again and they were looking for ways to live in peace. That’s why it seemed a good idea. But, as the saying goes, “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.” That’s the direction the EU is going in. Time to leave.

    The one thing that UKIP and The Green Party have in common is they’re willing to give the people a referendum. Knowing how the Greens believe in the European project, what would happen should the people vote to leave?

    Christine Wyndham-Thomas
    Secretary, UKIP Bristol Branch

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  5. “UKIP is the only party that wants to leave the EU whilst still remaining friends and trading with them. Nigel Farage likened it to an amicable divorce.”

    What vision!

    “If we were not a member of the EU, the majority of the money we send them would be ours and we wouldn’t be in the situation we are in now.”

    They send US money!

    “Just because they were British people, don’t you think they deserve compassion too! Yet plenty of money can be found to give to overseas charities.”

    Why is it one or the other?

    “The one time Britain needed help with the flooding of the Somerset Levels, the EU told Cameron “No, it wasn’t severe enough.” Tell that to the people living on the Somerset Levels. It beggars belief that anyone can support the EU under such circumstances.”

    I think Cameron should have made a much stronger case, then.

    “Sooner or later you are going to find out that the EU cannot be transformed and that nothing that’s worthwhile is going to change.”

    Anything has the power to be transformed. It’s just whether you have the political will, influence and nous to be able to do it.

    “Have you thought about what you would do when people who are really in need of our help can no longer come here to live because, through our open-door policy, we no longer have any room?”

    Seems to be a lot of properties that aren’t in use. I’m sure we’ll cope.

    “Have you really thought, for a party that’s concerned about the natural environment, of the number of houses that are now being built on greenbelt, which means more destruction of the countryside?”

    There are so many disused properties and brownfield sites that we don’t need to build new houses on the greenbelt.

    “Compassion means caring for those who are less fortunate, regardless of race, colour or creed, but it shouldn’t mean that we become ‘wanting’ ourselves, or Britain becomes ruined as a result.”

    Again, why is it either/or?

    “I didn’t mean to insinuate you were insane; it was something that didn’t make sense to me and that’s how I saw it.”

    You need to work on your use of language if you are going to get elected.

    “Since we’re having a debate, you should have explained why you believe it’s important to be in a political union; by doing so, you might have mellowed my own perceptions. I just find it hard to believe that it’s better to hand over the running of a country to a foreign power, rather than run it yourself. That’s what’s happened to Britain and it doesn’t make sense to me!”

    That isn’t what I think is happening. The UK has certain powers. The EU has certain powers. I’d probably agree that there are some things the EU does that the UK could do without needing to be in the EU, but I think there are so many things that the EU does cross-border that it is in our interests to participate in.

    “ME: Two words: Caroline Lucas. CHRISTINE: Nigel Farage.”

    Ask the majority of women who they support first out of those two…

    “In order to be able to help others, you have to be in a strong position yourself.”

    I’d say we’re in a pretty strong position – being in the top 10 world economies and having a history of colonising the world for our own ends.

    “Britain is one of the top ten at the moment, but won’t be for long if we carry on the way we’re going.”

    Do you base this on economic grounds, or is it just a form of scaremongering?

    “It isn’t selfish to think of your own country at a time when one needs to, like now.”

    I disagree. I think it’s deeply selfish, and just ingrains the cultural colonialism that we have laboured to shed since 1945.

    “Bring back control of our borders, so that Britain does not become too overcrowded, and that would then leave plenty of room for emergencies should we have to take people in from another country due to them fleeing wars or from persecution etc.”

    Yeah, this is a pretty wrong-headed way of understanding the motives of migrants and the mechanism of how they are processed here. It’s wholly barbaric – they aren’t treated like human beings.

    “Link: http://iainmckie.co.uk/uk-parliament-comes-effective-end-november-2014-new-eu-rules/

    I went to your link, but it didn’t have anything about Farage. Repost?

    “Fair enough.”

    So you are against neoliberalism? Why does your Deputy Leader want to privatise the NHS then? http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/ukip-privatise-nhs-nuttall-ttip.html

    “By complexity, I didn’t mean as in ‘not understanding’ but as in ‘nothing will get passed’ due to its intricacies. That’s why of all the proposals voted against by Jean Lambert, none were passed. My understanding is that for a proposal to pass, it has to receive a 65% of the vote from the member states. That’s why UKIP doesn’t waste their time. If their vote counted and mattered then it would be very different indeed.”

    Not good enough. Not good enough at all.

    “The one thing that UKIP and The Green Party have in common is they’re willing to give the people a referendum. Knowing how the Greens believe in the European project, what would happen should the people vote to leave?”

    Then we’d leave, but it’d be a step backwards.

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  6. (1) (Christine) “UKIP is the only party that wants to leave the EU whilst still remaining friends and trading with them. Nigel Farage likened it to an amicable divorce.”

    (1a) (Rob) What vision!

    (1b) Christine – tell me, Rob, many people have amicable divorces where they remain friends – WHY can’t we be friends with Europe without having our lives controlled by them? If the Green Party got into power, would it not be better for them to run Britain how they see fit, without being told what they can and can’t do by the EU? Surely it’s better to be a real prime minister than just a glorified manager!

    (2) (Christine) “If we were not a member of the EU, the majority of the money we send them would be ours and we wouldn’t be in the situation we are in now.”

    (2a) (Rob) They send US money!

    (2b) Christine – we get back approximately half of what we give, so I’ve been told (don’t know the exact figure), but we can only spend that money on what we’re told to by the EU.

    (3) (Christine) “Just because they were British people, don’t you think they deserve compassion too! Yet plenty of money can be found to give to overseas charities.

    (3a) (Rob) Why is it one or the other?

    (3b) Christine – it’s what the EU has created, not Britain or France or Germany. We have always been a charitable nation without the EU, and money and help was always to hand when needed. Now, thanks to the EU, billions of overseas aid is going to countries that don’t need it and is not being used for the people who are in real need. For eg. India, now one of the top 10 economies – up until 2012 we were actually sending them financial aid; not sure if it has now stopped, yet we cannot spend any money on our own people. Something is seriously wrong somewhere.

    (4) (Christine) “The one time Britain needed help with the flooding of the Somerset Levels, the EU told Cameron “No, it wasn’t severe enough.” Tell that to the people living on the Somerset Levels. It beggars belief that anyone can support the EU under such circumstances.”

    (4a) (Rob) I think Cameron should have made a much stronger case, then.

    (4b) Christine – it wouldn’t have mattered what government was in power; the EU governs, not us! A government can object as much as it likes, but the EU always has the last word! Here is an example of what happened when the Greek government of the time said there should be a referendum and that joining the Euro was a mistake. (Lasts about 5 minutes and once Farage finishes talking there’s nothing more interesting after that.) – http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=European+Parliament+Nigel+Farrage&FORM=RESTAB#view=detail&mid=E45544011D22324DB48FE45544011D22324DB48F
    That’s just one example of the EU getting its own way. Don’t forget what happened when Ireland voted no. They dressed the treaty up, called it a different name and offered it again in a referendum when this time they got the yes vote. The EU doesn’t like anyone voting against what they propose.

    (5) (Christine) “Sooner or later you are going to find out that the EU cannot be transformed and that nothing that’s worthwhile is going to change.”

    (5a) (Rob) Anything has the power to be transformed. It’s just whether you have the political will, influence and nous to be able to do it.

    (5b) Christine – not the EU. Any change will be to the EU’s advantage, not the peoples’. You must believe, then, that it’s possible for people like Karl Marx, Leon Trotsky, Hitler etc. to have been transformed. I don’t. Likewise with the EU, it cannot be transformed for the good of its people. The EU has set itself up to be a nation state, with its own anthem, flag, army and police force – and they are there to protect the EU project, not the citizens.

    (6) (Christine) “Have you thought about what you would do when people who are really in need of our help can no longer come here to live because, through our open-door policy, we no longer have any room?”

    (6a) (Rob) Seems to be a lot of properties that aren’t in use. I’m sure we’ll cope.

    (6b) Christine – it won’t take long for those empty properties to be used up, if they haven’t already, and they’re already starting to build on greenbelt. Christine Lagarde is advocating that Britain should build more houses in the country, because there really are not enough houses for all the people that want to come here to live. Blair has already said he’s going to help one million Albanians and Serbs to come to Britain and that’s on top of those already coming here or due to come here. If you still believe we have plenty of room to accommodate them, you really are out of touch with the issues affecting Britain today.

    (7) (Christine) “Have you really thought, for a party that’s concerned about the natural environment, of the number of houses that are now being built on greenbelt, which means more destruction of the countryside?”

    (7a) (Rob) There are so many disused properties and brownfield sites that we don’t need to build new houses on the greenbelt.

    (7b) Christine – Christine Lagarde would disagree.

    (8) (Christine) “Compassion means caring for those who are less fortunate, regardless of race, colour or creed, but it shouldn’t mean that we become ‘wanting’ ourselves, or Britain becomes ruined as a result.”

    (8a) (Rob) Again, why is it either/or?

    (8b) Christine – let’s presume I take home £20,000 a year and I can afford to help those less fortunate than me by donating £2,000 each year to charity. Over the course of the year, my expenses and bills start to go up and then they increase again but my wages remain the same. I’m already starting to feel the pinch, but if my bills start to go up again then I find myself in trouble. Unless I find a job that brings me in more money, I have to stop donating the £2,000, because I can no longer afford to. Even if I did find a job with more money, sooner or later bills and expenses would start to rise again until in the end I find I’m struggling to make ends meet. It doesn’t matter how much money I make, I find the government takes most of it through taxes and anything else they can think of. The same with any government, and we are beginning to feel the ‘pinch’ right now as a result of being in the EU.

    (9) (Christine) “I didn’t mean to insinuate you were insane; it was something that didn’t make sense to me and that’s how I saw it.”

    (9a) (Rob) You need to work on your use of language if you are going to get elected.

    (9b) Christine – I speak from my heart and am not into political correctness. I’d rather people know the way things really are than to sugar-coat lies to make it more appealing. However, I do my best not to use language that might offend.

    (10) (Christine) “Since we’re having a debate, you should have explained why you believe it’s important to be in a political union; by doing so, you might have mellowed my own perceptions. I just find it hard to believe that it’s better to hand over the running of a country to a foreign power, rather than run it yourself. That’s what’s happened to Britain and it doesn’t make sense to me!”

    (10a) (Rob) That isn’t what I think is happening. The UK has certain powers. The EU has certain powers. I’d probably agree that there are some things the EU does that the UK could do without needing to be in the EU, but I think there are so many things that the EU does cross-border that it is in our interests to participate in.

    (10b) Christine – I don’t think there is anything that the EU does cross-border that interests us. Even if, as you believe, there are, then does it really justify the sacrifices we are all making just to pursue it? This country is not only becoming ruined but if steps aren’t taken to stop what’s happening, we will soon be a third world country. I don’t expect you to believe that but a few years down the line, if something doesn’t stop it, you will see it happening for yourself.

    (11) (Rob) “ME: Two words: Caroline Lucas. CHRISTINE: Nigel Farage.”
    (11a) (Rob) Ask the majority of women who they support first out of those two…
    (11b) Christine – I might just do that, seriously!

    (12) (Christine) “In order to be able to help others, you have to be in a strong position yourself.”

    (12a) (Rob) I’d say we’re in a pretty strong position – being in the top 10 world economies and having a history of colonising the world for our own ends.

    (12b) Christine – And the EU won’t be happy until we’re at rock-bottom and reliant on them. The Chancellor has already given the EU 60 billion, on top of all the other money we give them, and they are still fining us for every little thing they can fine us for.

    (13) (Christine) “Britain is one of the top ten at the moment, but won’t be for long if we carry on the way we’re going.”

    (13a) (Rob) Do you base this on economic grounds, or is it just a form of scaremongering?

    (13b) Christine – food banks, bedroom tax, people losing their benefits, of which one or two have already committed suicide over and no more help for the disabled (just to name a few). When a government starts making cutbacks on the needy as a way to save money, that tells me we are already on a downward slope. UKIP would cut out all the quangos, top management jobs, all the total unnecessary waste of money that needn’t be.

    (14) (Christine) “It isn’t selfish to think of your own country at a time when one needs to, like now.”

    (14a) (Rob) I disagree. I think it’s deeply selfish, and just ingrains the cultural colonialism that we have laboured to shed since 1945.

    (14b) Christine – Oh my, now I understand where your ‘thinking’ is based. I don’t feel guilty about what happened back in history. I wasn’t alive then. I only feel guilt and take responsibility for my own actions now and on the decisions I now make.

    England has nothing to be proud of in its colonisation record back in history or what it did to Ireland, Wales or Scotland. The slave trade, too, another example. But what happened back then was nothing to do with us, as we weren’t responsible for making those decisions or for taking part in any of those actions. We simply weren’t born then. However, we are alive now. So we take responsibility for our own actions and decisions. For that reason and for the sake of Britain and all the other countries chained to the EU would we have the best and only chance of making things right by leaving the EU.

    (15) (Christine) “Bring back control of our borders, so that Britain does not become too overcrowded, and that would then leave plenty of room for emergencies should we have to take people in from another country due to them fleeing wars or from persecution etc.”

    (15a) (Rob) Yeah, this is a pretty wrong-headed way of understanding the motives of migrants and the mechanism of how they are processed here. It’s wholly barbaric – they aren’t treated like human beings.

    (15b) Christine – but that is something that can be changed. We don’t need the EU and its extremes for that. In fact, the EU treats everybody, except themselves, like herds of animals. They know there’s trouble looming and you can bet they’re not going to be concerned about the people.

    (16) (Christine) “Link: http://iainmckie.co.uk/uk-parliament-comes-effective-end-november-2014-new-eu-rules/
    (16a) (Rob) I went to your link, but it didn’t have anything about Farage. Repost?
    (16b) Christine – my apologies. No idea why I posted that link.
    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=European+Parliament+Nigel+Farrage&FORM=RESTAB#view=detail&mid=EC5BC9D762CF209477EEEC5BC9D762CF209477EE
    (The talk lasts about 3 minutes and once he finishes, that’s the end.) This link shows Nigel Farage speaking up in the European Parliament, regarding the Mediterranean countries. He doesn’t sugar-coat the bitterness of what is really happening. He isn’t just concerned about Britain, but Europe as a whole. All his speeches involves the injustice by the EU on the citizens of their member states.

    (17) (Rob) So you are against neoliberalism? Why does your Deputy Leader want to privatise the NHS then? http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/ukip-privatise-nhs-nuttall-ttip.html

    (17a) Christine – for a start, there is no 2014 Manifesto as of yet. It’s due to be released in September. Secondly, I attended a meeting with Paul Nuttall recently and somebody asked him about privitising the NHS. He replied he had been badly misquoted in the press and that he is not in favour of privatising the NHS. What he did say was that the NHS needs to be streamlined. There are too many top managers earning ridiculous salaries for doing absolutely nothing. These are the jobs UKIP wants to get rid of. When cutbacks are needed they believe it should start from the top, not the bottom. We need more nurses and doctors and we need them to be fully trained. Obviously there have to be staff at the top, but we don’t want the NHS to be over-run with them, as they are now. That’s what he meant.

    Both the Conservatives and Labour believe in selling off the NHS; the Cons. have already started the process.

    (18) (Christine) “By complexity, I didn’t mean as in ‘not understanding’ but as in ‘nothing will get passed’ due to its intricacies. That’s why of all the proposals voted against by Jean Lambert, none were passed. My understanding is that for a proposal to pass, it has to receive a 65% of the vote from the member states. That’s why UKIP doesn’t waste their time. If their vote counted and mattered then it would be very different indeed.”

    (18a) (Rob) Not good enough. Not good enough at all.

    (18b) Christine – If Cameron was listened to from time to time it might be a different matter, but he’s not. It must be very frustrating when out of 85 proposals, not one has been accepted. We really don’t mean anything to the EU other than the money we give to them. And to stress my point further, Cameron is opposed to the appointment of Juncker as the next EU president and warned Merkel that Britain could leave the EU if he got appointed. Do you think she took on board what he said; not at all. It looks as though Juncker is set to be the next appointed leader. Oh dear, another disappointment for Cameron.
    Just to explain why the EU is heading in the wrong direction (again 5mins) – http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=European+Parliament+Nigel+Farrage&FORM=RESTAB#view=detail&mid=828CA32C6204DC36C3F1828CA32C6204DC36C3F1

    (19) (Christine) “The one thing that UKIP and The Green Party have in common is they’re willing to give the people a referendum. Knowing how the Greens believe in the European project, what would happen should the people vote to leave?”

    (19a) (Rob) Then we’d leave, but it’d be a step backwards.

    (19b) Christine – HOW would it be a step backwards? Even if it was a ‘yes’ to leaving, it would take a maximum of 2yrs to arrange terms, although it’s hoped we’d be out in under a year. But my vision for the future would be a government elected by the people for the people and where issues could be openly discussed without fear of having to be politically correct. Borders would be controlled. We would not be living in a police state. Quangos would go and if we did have to make use of one or two of them, they wouldn’t be earning the salary they are now. There’d be no such issues as bedroom tax, food banks etc., as they wouldn’t be needed, and disabled people would be better looked after. Greenbelt would remain greenbelt. Post Offices would re-open. We would make Britain attractive for manufacturers to want to make their products here. Small businesses would be given the opportunity to flourish. Grammar schools would be brought back so that everyone would be given a chance for better education. We would trade both with Europe and the rest of the world, and political correctness would be relegated to the dustbins of history. We would progress from there – but none of it is possible unless we leave the EU.

    Christine Wyndham-Thomas
    UK Independence Party
    Bristol Branch

    Like

  7. Have you decided to delete my last post? Or have you decided to finish this discussion (battle, as you would call it) altogether?

    Like

  8. Sorry, Rob. I see it’s there now awaiting moderation. It just wasn’t there when I clicked on earlier.

    Like

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